Frightened Birds by
Piesiu
Description
#8 at DiHalt 2010 ZX Graphics compo(#2 in online voting)
Details
Submitted by: diver4d
- Page loaded: 11032
- Rating: 9.36 (14 Votes)
Votes
Comments
mikme | 2010-07-12
Irwin, are you joking about "one of the best pictures in the history gfx ZX spectrum scene"?
really good work, yep, but nothing more.
good color work, love details, but messy dithering and visible blocks.
and "cheating interlace" seems like you just don't know how and where it works.
about "real results" - it's online-voting results, real party result for this work - 8th place.
really good work, yep, but nothing more.
good color work, love details, but messy dithering and visible blocks.
and "cheating interlace" seems like you just don't know how and where it works.
about "real results" - it's online-voting results, real party result for this work - 8th place.
irwin | 2010-07-12
Why on ArtField is two gfx category? (Standard and Gigascreen). Why on many others parties two categories. Seems like you just don't know how and where it works.
No, i'm not joking about "one of the best pictures in the history gfx ZX spectrum scene"
About results - two results? Then why online voting? Anyway in online voting results, this pic win in standard gfx category.
No, i'm not joking about "one of the best pictures in the history gfx ZX spectrum scene"
About results - two results? Then why online voting? Anyway in online voting results, this pic win in standard gfx category.
mikme | 2010-07-12
Forever [1 category], raww.orgy [1 category], di:halt [1 category], sundown [1 category], chaos constructions [1 category], arok [1 category], retroeuskal [1 category], tum [1 category].
and look at c=64 scene where much more gfx modes and since 199x years only 1 gfx category for all modes at parties.
no cheating, just try to make something in this modes, it's much harder than "standard pure zx power". and it works at classik zx spectrum 128.
and look at c=64 scene where much more gfx modes and since 199x years only 1 gfx category for all modes at parties.
no cheating, just try to make something in this modes, it's much harder than "standard pure zx power". and it works at classik zx spectrum 128.
irwin | 2010-07-12
Nice find! but...
I add even more, for example Riverwash 2009 where in OldSchool gfx compo wins Amiga Aga pictures and great Atari 8bit picture took only 3th place. Of course Amiga pics are very good and should wins but Atari 8bit have much worse gfx modes then Amiga. Something wrong with rules.
This same in yours examples like Sundown, Euskal, Tum... where is no typical ZX compos. No typical ZX Party. So very little zx graphics (on Tum2009 only you make ZX Spectrum gfx - btw very good) So that's why no gigascreen/standard compos - for 1-3 pictures?
As you know, there is very big difference when you have 8x1, 8x2 blocks and 102 colors, vs 8x8 and 15 colors. Much more possibilities.
So in ArtField - mainstream ZX Party (not like Sundown, Tum etc) - two gfx compos. So separate beeper and AY music compos in ... DiHalt. So on AtariST scene, separate Spectrum 512 colors and 16 colors compo. This is a good way to compete. Everyone have this same limits.
Many peoples don't know about interlace and when vote online they based only on *.png file on web page - without flickering. Pros and Cons standard and gigascreen gfx no available in that way. Gigascreen has more colors but this cost something. On web page, on static *.png file this is not visible.
About " it's much harder than "standard pure zx power"
Yes/or not/ in one way harder, agree, but in other hand, more colors, less blocks - easier way to create better gfx with proper colors and less visible blocks.
I think gigascreen pictures should have own compo. This allow start one user in two compos (like in beeper and AY music). Allow this same limits to all competitors. This will be fair.
* sorry for my poor english.
I add even more, for example Riverwash 2009 where in OldSchool gfx compo wins Amiga Aga pictures and great Atari 8bit picture took only 3th place. Of course Amiga pics are very good and should wins but Atari 8bit have much worse gfx modes then Amiga. Something wrong with rules.
This same in yours examples like Sundown, Euskal, Tum... where is no typical ZX compos. No typical ZX Party. So very little zx graphics (on Tum2009 only you make ZX Spectrum gfx - btw very good) So that's why no gigascreen/standard compos - for 1-3 pictures?
As you know, there is very big difference when you have 8x1, 8x2 blocks and 102 colors, vs 8x8 and 15 colors. Much more possibilities.
So in ArtField - mainstream ZX Party (not like Sundown, Tum etc) - two gfx compos. So separate beeper and AY music compos in ... DiHalt. So on AtariST scene, separate Spectrum 512 colors and 16 colors compo. This is a good way to compete. Everyone have this same limits.
Many peoples don't know about interlace and when vote online they based only on *.png file on web page - without flickering. Pros and Cons standard and gigascreen gfx no available in that way. Gigascreen has more colors but this cost something. On web page, on static *.png file this is not visible.
About " it's much harder than "standard pure zx power"
Yes/or not/
in one way harder, agree, but in other hand, more colors, less blocks - easier way to create better gfx with proper colors and less visible blocks. I think gigascreen pictures should have own compo. This allow start one user in two compos (like in beeper and AY music). Allow this same limits to all competitors. This will be fair.
* sorry for my poor english.
CONS | 2010-07-12
My compo favourite!
trixs | 2010-07-13
Multicolor real-ZX on a picture for me unusable. Man is invisible on the PC. On the PC it looks really nice, but it is not ZX. And when the vote in one category, it should do as the pictures flashed on a real ZX. Whether there is a difference.
diver4d | 2010-07-14
irwin, i'm agreed, that Piesiu did VERY great work with that picture. And the picture is really impressive - a lot of details, interesting story, very beautiful countours and dithering.
BUT, just imagine the open-air party place at the lakeshore, at night, drunk and bored sceners trying to see anything on the screen and what did they see? Some light green-cyan-magenta areas. Is it a really good choice for party pic? Definitely no, so you can se only BIGFACEPICS at the top of the party results.
And compare partyresults with online voting. Two detailed pictures at 1st and 2nd places. These results looks more adequate.
About mixing gfxomodes at compo:
1) there is not so much gigascreen graphics at every party to separate it.
2) gigascreen mode is just developing last years and it needs more support, so it mixed with standard mode at most parties
3) as you can see gigascreen not always wins - just check DiHalt 2010 party results (gigascreen pictures is #4 and #5)
4) you said that gigascreen can be separated because it has more tricks to hide blocks + much more other possibilites. But look at B/W graphics - it is much more easy to draw in any editor, and it has no blocks at all! So, B/W graphics must be separated from colour graphics? Ofcourse no. Every graphician chooses himself, which mode to choose, how hard will be drawing process and which graphics possibilities he need. And it is not a reason to split the compo by mode.
BUT, just imagine the open-air party place at the lakeshore, at night, drunk and bored sceners trying to see anything on the screen and what did they see? Some light green-cyan-magenta areas. Is it a really good choice for party pic? Definitely no, so you can se only BIGFACEPICS at the top of the party results.
And compare partyresults with online voting. Two detailed pictures at 1st and 2nd places. These results looks more adequate.
About mixing gfxomodes at compo:
1) there is not so much gigascreen graphics at every party to separate it.
2) gigascreen mode is just developing last years and it needs more support, so it mixed with standard mode at most parties
3) as you can see gigascreen not always wins - just check DiHalt 2010 party results (gigascreen pictures is #4 and #5)
4) you said that gigascreen can be separated because it has more tricks to hide blocks + much more other possibilites. But look at B/W graphics - it is much more easy to draw in any editor, and it has no blocks at all! So, B/W graphics must be separated from colour graphics? Ofcourse no. Every graphician chooses himself, which mode to choose, how hard will be drawing process and which graphics possibilities he need. And it is not a reason to split the compo by mode.
irwin | 2010-07-15
DiHalt - Diver4d, imagine this:
Authors always don't know about partyplace screening quality.
On parties always be and will be plenty drunk peoples
But we have rules. I understand drunk and bored sceners and their votes. But don't understand organizers who don't respect their own DiHalt rules:
"- All graphics works should have a minimum 3 intermediate phases in the archive.
- Scanned pictures and others copies are not accepted.
- Party version shouldn't show the signature of the author/group."
Look then on Bfox picture:
01 Sign is visible (right bottom) - rule is violated.
02 Picture is a copy from photo (maybe manually in benediction precision pixeled (personally i doubt) but it does't matter - it's a copy - next rule is violated.
03 No intermediate phases - again 3rd time rule is violated.
http://i32.tinypic.com/23s94lu.jpg
Some authors respect organizers, respect rules and in effect take 8th place.
Others authors have organizers, sceners and rules in ... (censored word) ... and win!
Imagine now, for example what Piesiu feel. Or not imagine, just read (via google translate)this:
http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=856&Focus=12934#Comment_12934
---
Gigascreen:
If in rules will be separate two gfx compos then i think will be more gigascreen pictures.
Like in ArtField. Like i separate music compos. Some authors will start in two categories, some other when see there is a equal rules - limits to everyone, start in this compo (like me . Now when one make picture in 15 colors and 8x8 blocks and other in 102 colors and 8x1 there is a huge difference.
Something like ZX Spectrum and Amiga.
Of course gigascreen have cons too - flickering
BUT ON WEB PAGE FLICKERING IS NO VISIBLE!
So maybe we should create new mode supergigascreen - 4 picture lace.
Now we have thousands colors and instead this:
http://i29.tinypic.com/35b9sv4.png
we show this
http://i26.tinypic.com/25iutg3.jpg
or
http://i43.tinypic.com/j7qcsl.png
we show this
http://i30.tinypic.com/begi0i.jpg
On web page when mix all 4 images together (like interlace now) you see very colorfull picture. For sure planty peoples vote on this and think about others pictures - 15 colors 8x8 pictures - "autor this 15 color is a moron, probably blind , he use bad woodstock naroctics colors, and this visible blocks..."
Now when you enter here:
http://artcity.bitfellas.org/index.php?a=show&id=17251
you read "I can't see any blocks"
or here
http://artcity.bitfellas.org/index.php?a=show&id=17250
"Nice shade of colours"
But all this things cost: flicker - but on web page - we have nice static pictures.
So we mix 4pictures and we have even more colors - but maybe someone say: this is on ZX not watchable - who cares!
I care.
If this pictures will proper sign like "Achtung, Wnimanje - this is braindamage interlace, this looks more like this:
http://zx.maros.pri.ee/zxscreen/border/0/palette/pulsar/mode/flicker/type/multiartist/id/3749/filename/IMAGE.mg4
http://zx.maros.pri.ee/zxscreen/border/0/palette/pulsar/mode/flicker/type/gigascreen/id/3748/filename/graymale.img
Then i think many online voters vote different. Now many don't know about gigascreen. Here is 2 weeks ago thread on atarionline:
http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=754&Focus=12784#Comment_12784
So this is totally different then your example b&w because, b&w like 15 color don't flicker.
Equal chances to all. This is a reason to split compo by not mode - by interlace.
Authors always don't know about partyplace screening quality.
On parties always be and will be plenty drunk peoples
But we have rules. I understand drunk and bored sceners and their votes. But don't understand organizers who don't respect their own DiHalt rules:
"- All graphics works should have a minimum 3 intermediate phases in the archive.
- Scanned pictures and others copies are not accepted.
- Party version shouldn't show the signature of the author/group."
Look then on Bfox picture:
01 Sign is visible (right bottom) - rule is violated.
02 Picture is a copy from photo (maybe manually in benediction precision pixeled (personally i doubt) but it does't matter - it's a copy - next rule is violated.
03 No intermediate phases - again 3rd time rule is violated.
http://i32.tinypic.com/23s94lu.jpg
Some authors respect organizers, respect rules and in effect take 8th place.
Others authors have organizers, sceners and rules in ... (censored word)
... and win!Imagine now, for example what Piesiu feel. Or not imagine, just read (via google translate)this:
http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=856&Focus=12934#Comment_12934
---
Gigascreen:
If in rules will be separate two gfx compos then i think will be more gigascreen pictures.
Like in ArtField. Like i separate music compos. Some authors will start in two categories, some other when see there is a equal rules - limits to everyone, start in this compo (like me
. Now when one make picture in 15 colors and 8x8 blocks and other in 102 colors and 8x1 there is a huge difference.Something like ZX Spectrum and Amiga.
Of course gigascreen have cons too - flickering
BUT ON WEB PAGE FLICKERING IS NO VISIBLE!
So maybe we should create new mode supergigascreen - 4 picture lace.
Now we have thousands colors and instead this:
http://i29.tinypic.com/35b9sv4.png
we show this
http://i26.tinypic.com/25iutg3.jpg
or
http://i43.tinypic.com/j7qcsl.png
we show this
http://i30.tinypic.com/begi0i.jpg
On web page when mix all 4 images together (like interlace now) you see very colorfull picture. For sure planty peoples vote on this and think about others pictures - 15 colors 8x8 pictures - "autor this 15 color is a moron, probably blind , he use bad woodstock naroctics colors, and this visible blocks..."
Now when you enter here:
http://artcity.bitfellas.org/index.php?a=show&id=17251
you read "I can't see any blocks"
or here
http://artcity.bitfellas.org/index.php?a=show&id=17250
"Nice shade of colours"
But all this things cost: flicker - but on web page - we have nice static pictures.
So we mix 4pictures and we have even more colors - but maybe someone say: this is on ZX not watchable - who cares!
I care.
If this pictures will proper sign like "Achtung, Wnimanje - this is braindamage interlace, this looks more like this:
http://zx.maros.pri.ee/zxscreen/border/0/palette/pulsar/mode/flicker/type/multiartist/id/3749/filename/IMAGE.mg4
http://zx.maros.pri.ee/zxscreen/border/0/palette/pulsar/mode/flicker/type/gigascreen/id/3748/filename/graymale.img
Then i think many online voters vote different. Now many don't know about gigascreen. Here is 2 weeks ago thread on atarionline:
http://atarionline.pl/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=754&Focus=12784#Comment_12784
So this is totally different then your example b&w because, b&w like 15 color don't flicker.
Equal chances to all. This is a reason to split compo by not mode - by interlace.
CONS | 2010-07-15
Omg, is that what the pictures really look like?
mikme | 2010-07-15
Irwin, Cons, nop, on real speccy pictures look different. Links at zx.maros.ee show just two screens flickers one after another without interlace technology (decrease flickering).
In zx-emulators and on PC you can't see proper version of flickering (bad vertical synchro) that's why we use PNG-shots.
For example my picture here with interlace technology:
http://simbols.untergrund.net/riskej/graphics/2010/graymalex1.rar
In zx-emulators and on PC you can't see proper version of flickering (bad vertical synchro) that's why we use PNG-shots.
For example my picture here with interlace technology:
http://simbols.untergrund.net/riskej/graphics/2010/graymalex1.rar
mikme | 2010-07-15
Irwin, and please, don't say something if you have never seen a real zx spectrum. It rather different machine than even the best emulator.
Real Speccy has different flickering (with interlace technology) which has nothing to do with an emulator.
Real Speccy has different flickering (with interlace technology) which has nothing to do with an emulator.
irwin | 2010-07-15
Thats why i wrote:
- "this looks MORE like this:"
- not EXACTLY
Do you realy think there is on real ZX gigacreen pictures look like static *.png file?
> Real Speccy has different flickering (with interlace technology) which has nothing to do with an emulator.
i agree - but its flicker anyway. So? static png looks like this flickering?
> In zx-emulators and on PC you can't see proper version of flickering (bad vertical synchro) that's why WE USE PNG-shots.
and this is a "cheating" - like i said in first post - because on real ZX this pictures don't look static.
Find other way to show on web page - maybe like on c64pixels.com because now, like i said (and no one answer) there is possible to create x-lace pictures and mix in to one static png.
- "this looks MORE like this:"
- not EXACTLY
Do you realy think there is on real ZX gigacreen pictures look like static *.png file?
> Real Speccy has different flickering (with interlace technology) which has nothing to do with an emulator.
i agree - but its flicker anyway. So? static png looks like this flickering?
> In zx-emulators and on PC you can't see proper version of flickering (bad vertical synchro) that's why WE USE PNG-shots.
and this is a "cheating" - like i said in first post - because on real ZX this pictures don't look static.
Find other way to show on web page - maybe like on c64pixels.com because now, like i said (and no one answer) there is possible to create x-lace pictures and mix in to one static png.
trixs | 2010-07-15
Irwin> completely agree with you. Multicolor Image can not be paired with a classic picture, if only in the emulator. Like everyone that wrote to me converting, so I now find that other critics do.
Anarkhya | 2010-07-15
Just dropping by to say I enjoy reading this discussion about output, I am an uneducated spectator regarding ZX and it helps me to understand the whole thing. I also found out that your aguments could help me appreciate/understand how to render exotic screenmodes on amiga. Thanks for making this public.
proteque | 2010-08-19
I learned a lot about ZX in this thread. thanx. its some of the same issues for C64 art on PC actually.
This is one of the best pictures in the history gfx ZX spectrum scene. Almost no visible blocks. Great colors, great details, no cheating interlace, pure ZX Power.
Real results:
http://speccy-live.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dihalt2010_results.txt